Interview transcript

Reade (00:00):

Let's see. Three, two, one. Welcome everybody. Thank you so much for joining me for another growth secrets interview series. We've been interviewing business leaders, marketing leaders, and creative entrepreneurs to see how they're building and how they built and how they're growing their businesses. And within a special focus on how we're adjusting to life in this Corona virus shutdown, pandemic shelter in place, whatever we're calling this weird period in history. Thankfully I'm having the chance today to talk to Ben Walker with spindle an Oak. He's another Atlanta guy, is another Southern guy. So if you are not prepared to listen to a couple of Southern accents, then you should just jump off the video now because it's going to be full of them and I couldn't be more excited about it. So Ben, thanks so much for joining me, man.

Ben (00:55):

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be a part of your show. I'll try to keep my Southern accent at a minimum.

Reade (01:02):

Never, never. Well, Ben, tell us about your business. Give us a little background and what are you guys working on these days and how do you help people?

Ben (01:12):

Yeah. So we are a full service design build construction firm. And so we we really focus on the residential side. So it's any kind of renovations that you want to do and to inside or outside of your home. And so we're, we're still new. We're still within the two year Mark and and you know, we, we got our start not knowing really what to expect. So I guess I'm not jumping ahead too much here, but I wasn't always in construction. I at an 18 year career in technology and and product management and and project management as well and really loved you know, the opportunities that we had when we could really hone in on the customer experience and client relationships and, and, and understand how important those two things were and also had the opportunity to experience what environments looked like with Allen Phillips.

Ben (02:13):

And and so that is something that I am pulling with me in, in starting this, this company a couple of years ago and something that we keep at the forefront of our values. And and you know, also, you know, my dad was a builder and I grew up building stuff and even in my technology career, we were always renovating our home or family's home friends' homes and and, and having a lot of fun doing that. And at some point, you know, we, we've all had [inaudible] bad contractor experiences, right? So we've had our own you know, they're just really kind of shifty, unreliable, not transparent. You know, for the majority of them, they really don't care about what the experience was to you. They just want to get paid. And you know, at least for, you know, since the last recession, there's been so much work out there, they haven't really had to care about reviews.

Ben (03:17):

You know, there's that many people calling their phone just because they're listed somewhere that they can really care less. They just want to get that next paycheck. And that's why you hear a lot of them, they get paid, you know, 90%, and then you don't see them again because that last 10% is so hard to get through. They don't really care about that money. So that's one of the main reasons that we wanted to start. This is I want to do something that I'm passionate about. I love, I'm going to focus on certain things. I'm taken with me from the technology field and I want to do it differently. And, and, and in doing that, we really keeping our Southern values at the forefront of that and, and establishing a brand that we can really, you know fly those high and, and be proud of what are the values that we're, we've been founded on.

Reade (04:13):

I muted myself on accident. Yeah. So I, I love that. I love that that you're disrupting an industry that one has been around for a long time. People have been building stuff for a long time. But it has developed a bit of a black eye and, and, you know, I know a lot of contractors and they're good people. And so I hate that that's happened to the industry, but, but it has happened. Right. I love, I love the the Ron Swanson quote from parks and rec. He says, I don't want to paint with a broad brush, but every contractor ever is a lying, thieving hat. And I've worked at a lot of industries where that black eye is already there. And so you have to overcome that, which I'm sure you've seen as a challenge at first. But if you can very definitely differentiate yourself, then there's a great opportunity there. Is that, have you seen that bear out in real life?

Ben (05:08):

Yeah, absolutely. First you meet somebody, you know, clean off the street. They haven't heard of you or they don't know much about you. You do have a little bit of more work more work in kind of proving who you are, talking about the process, how transparent you want to be, just really putting their fears at ease and, and establishing that trust that's been broken so many times. And I agree with you. I have a lot of contractor friends too, and they're great guys, but like from the, you know, for the great majority man, we get a bad name and it's rightly so. But you know, the things that differentiate us are and this is what we really spend our marketing dollars in kind of stay staining and making sure that everybody knows this about us, is that we, we really want to focus on that expert craftsmanship.

Ben (06:05):

We really focus on the exquisite customer experience and the transparency. And then, you know, the third thing is really staying on budget so somebody can trust you. They know that you're going to do a good work cause we do a lot of social media stuff and they see the work that we do. We do a lot of reviews and live reviews. So people see a Zackly what people think of us after the project is done, which is very important. And then they, they see you know, that we have the budget that we started on. We have stuck to it. Now. There are unforeseeable things, you know, you open up a wall and you know, the house is about to collapse. You have to fix it. [inaudible]

Ben (06:51):

Anyone. But I think that, you know, making sure that they know exactly where you are in the process, knowing the risks and then knowing, you know, what could be the possible costs you know, you have a, a standard project it could be X, well it could cost X. Well, as you go through that project, you're talking about finishes and this is getting into the nuts and bolts of everything. But if you're thinking about like selecting tile and selecting, you know, a wall color and selecting a lighting fixture, you know, it could be X, it gets stick to that. And we start with an allocation. We're very forefront about that. Like, Hey, we're giving you $200 for a lighting fixture and $4 a square foot for the flooring. Now if they picked something that's $15 a square foot and a $500 lighting fixture, it's pretty clear to them like, this is above and beyond what we've really allocated.

Ben (07:50):

So explaining those things out to them and creating that spreadsheet of allocations from the very beginning and sharing it with them. They feel like they're really in control of how the project is going, where we are in the prior process. And then being able to control the prices, understanding where they could start to save some and then where they can allocate that money in other places they want to spend more. Gotcha. And is that, is that stuff you brought over from that product and project management career to just that real clear understanding of timelines and communication and transparency so that everybody knows what's going on? And when, yeah, absolutely. You know, project management, the, the, the main task or project management is just making sure that the, all the stakeholders are comfortable. Yup. Right. If you make sure that they're informed or some of them are, informs is the whole racy model.

Ben (08:44):

Right? Some people need to be responsible for what you're telling them or you know, the theme to take action. Some people just need to be informed. And then knowing that somebody else has got it, somebody got the ball and they're running with it, or within the guidelines, we're within budget. All's good, let's go into next phase. That's the main, that's the main battle. And in clients, you know, we're talking about homeowners, we're talking about our wives, you know, we are our, our neighbors, you know, and my, my wife is very, very detailed and so I often channel her and what would, her name is lane and and she's great, but she keeps me in in line, say the least. But I channel her and say, Hey, if this was Lane's house, you know, what, how would she want us to clean up at the end of each day?

Ben (09:33):

How would she want to be informed of, oops, we found something in the wall. You know, it was being honest and, and immediate and saying, Hey, this is what we found. This is what it could mean, you know, but I'm going to put it together and I'll, I'll, I'll present to you what we would like to do and what we're recommending to do and what it might cost. So really making sure that the clients, and they're all different. Some, some of the guys that we, you know, guy homeowners are all like, yeah, dude, looks good. Go for it. You know, and then the women are like, wait, hold on a second. Well, let's talk about it. So it's very much, it's very similar to the the technology world. Yeah. We, sorry, go ahead. No, yeah, I was gonna I was gonna add on to that, you know, not only my project management side, but also my product management.

Ben (10:21):

So understanding that this is you know an industry that can be productized. It doesn't have to be a fuzzy number out there. Like, Oh my gosh, we're going to do our kitchen. It's going to be a fortune. Well, you know what, if you're transparent enough, they see a Zackly where their dollars are going, they can really pick off, you know, and kind of itemize it. And it's almost like a little shopping list. Hey, what do you want it? Where do you want to spend your money? And you know, and I can be a consultant in that role too and like, Hey, I can consult. You probably want to spend a little bit more money here. You can pull back a little bit here. And so understanding that, you know, this is a product, it's gotta be, it's gotta be affordable, it's gotta be viable.

Ben (11:05):

Like people want and need to understand that they can spend this money. And they always want to understand about ROI. And that's a big part of being transparent. Cause somebody can spend, you know, a hundred grand on their kitchen is unbelievable, right? So they're often asking, well, what's the ROI? So I say, typically, Hey, if you want to quantitative analysis, you know do you have a real Tor? And if you have somebody, great, ask them those questions. If not, I can give you one. You know, I can, I can have somebody to talk to you to answer those questions. But it's, it's also a battle of between the quantitative and the qualitative. So yes, you spent a hundred grand on your kitchen, you're not going to get all that money. You know, you might get, I don't know, 75% of it back if it was a really like a really outdated kitchen before.

Ben (12:01):

But as the qualitative is understanding the wow, like, okay, one, are you looking to sell your home or what do you want to do with it? You want to one, yes, you want to demand more money on the market, but also you want to give that qualitative. Wow, that first impression, right? The surprise and delight. They walk into your home and they're like, you know, the wife hits the husband. She's like, honey, look at this kitchen. This is amazing. And the guy walks into the backyard, he hits his wife and his shoulder and say, honey, look at this backyard. We're home. You know, you can't put a price on that. And if they're looking to stay in the home too, it's like a, why wouldn't you enjoy this? You know I think it was 90% of homeowners, they buy a home and they don't shoes. They say, Hey, we got to do something about that kitchen. We got to do something about that yard. 90% of them don't do a thing until they're ready to sell. And then when they're ready to sell, they spend that money and they're like, Oh my gosh, this kitchen is amazing. Why do we wait to do this? So it is a constant balance of being transparent, making them comfortable, and then helping them understand the qualitative versus quantitative values of any kind of renovation that they're about to undertake.

Reade (13:19):

Okay. So you mentioned a couple of things that I actually think I can identify with with you quite a bit on this. Starting back at the beginning. I mean I made, I make jokes about, about contractors having a black eye, but, but my industry has earned a black act too, right? I have to overcome that issue a lot. Are people saying, well, yeah, we hired a marketing agency before and we really got burns, they promised us millions of dollars in revenue and they took our money and ran all the way up to this this balance that I think you have to strike between creating a productized service offering, but then providing enough consultated value add to really distinguish yourself from just being commoditized along with the rest of any types of, you know, off the shelf products that they could buy. Right. So is, was that an intentional thing of saying, look, here is our standard, you know, package or foundational foundation to our packages. And then this is our process for adding that, that concern, that consultative component so that each one is unique and different.

Ben (14:36):

Yeah. You know, it's, I want to say, Hey, we are 100%, you know, intentional about every aspect from the get go, but we weren't, it's a learning process, right. When you start a company. I didn't know everything. I know now, you know, when I started and I don't know now what I'm going to know in 10 years. But it's, it's really goes back to like making them feel comfortable and Hey, there's not, we're not going to come up, you know, come across any problem that we're not going to be able to solve these. But you know, as far as the marketing, so I want to kind of like pivot and address your marketing, you know your statement there is often hard as marketers cause I was mostly in marketing, you know, project and product management. But as marketers is often hard to give that quantitative value, they want to say, all right, we're spending whatever it is, $5,000 in Facebook ads.

Ben (15:46):

Like show me the money, like, tell me where that was worth it. You know, and it's often hard to give a apples to apples answer to something like that, but as a holistic view and so in marketing, and I know I'm going off on a tangent here. Nope, please. Good stuff. It's all about getting your name out there. Word of mouth is King as always. This industry is, is even more so, but you spending your time, we just money and creating a good website, creating social media posts that people can identify with it and understanding your audience. Who's your target audience? You know, is my target audience Angie's list? No, I do not want people that are just looking for the cheapest electrician to come in and do a small job. You know, my audience is more the house Aho UC members and they are the dreamers.

Ben (16:42):

They want, they know they want to do their kitchen and they, they invest time in creating ideal books for that perfect look and feel to kind of accommodate a certain look into their style. But it's, it's advertising where they are and understanding their buying journey. Like this is product management one Oh one. Right? Understanding the buyer's journey. Where are they doing research? When they ask neighbors, they sometimes do recommendations on Facebook. They're on next door. They ask, you know neighbors in passing who you know, who have you used they, they, you know, drive past their house and you have a yard sign saying spindle in Oak renovations and you're like, Oh wow. So the next time they see you, they might talk to you. But like any individualized one, one of these things like, yeah, I spent $500 on yard signs.

Ben (17:35):

Like, how do I, how do I see the money come back on that? Cause people say, people don't call me and say, Hey, I just saw your yard sign. Well sometimes, but oftentimes they see that they see a yard sign, they see an ad that we're running in the home mag. They, they hear somebody about, you know, talking about us on next door, you know. And then finally, the straw that broke the camel's back is they see us, do, you know, one of their friends comments on one of our, our our live, you know, videos on Facebook, like our big reveal video or something like that. Or we'd like to do the handing the bat the key to, to the client at the end of the project and have like a toast. So all of these things kind of work together and, and then, you know, you eventually get there and you get to be successful, but it's really hard to, when you're in a new business, nowhere to spend the money. But, but understanding that whole ecosystem and the buying journey is very important.

Reade (18:36):

Look, I, I love that. Obviously you're, you're, you know, you're preaching to the choir here. I talk about it as an ecosystem a lot, right? And I do talk about things like a funnel, right? Like it, there are situations when it is appropriate and useful to have you know, one, one traffic source, one conversion point and, and you've got yourself a marketing funnel. But when I'm working with clients, especially over the long term, we want to build out multiple funnels into this ecosystem, which includes, you know, content, speaking engagements yard signs potentially. Sure, right? Like all this network, this web of different places that your name can be seen in different opportunities for people to come into your ecosystem. Once they're in the ecosystem, either proactively or, or just in a static way, you can give people a way that they can learn more and they can, they can dig deeper, they can see testimonials, they can see reviews all the way to the point, like you said, where there's that final trigger event where the interest kind of hits the ceiling and the timing is right where they say, you know what, I've seen spindle an Oak in enough places and I've seen their work and I can't not pick up the phone and call Ben.

Reade (20:03):

Like, that's it. I've had it. Like, I know I want to do this. I got at least talk to somebody. Right? So I think you're absolutely tell, telling the right message there. If we can, I'd like to pivot and, and kind of call out the elephant in the room that a lot of people are thinking about right now. And, and it's this coronavirus thing that's going on and how it's affecting all of our lives and it's affecting us as, as business leaders, not only in the operations of our business. And maybe you could start with either one of these that you lie but I've been talking to a lot of people about how it's affecting their sales and marketing. Right? Is, is now a good time to B to B marketing and to be selling? Is it the time to hold back? What's the right thing to do there? I tend to think it's a great opportunity to be investing a lot of time and money and energy into marketing because the competition may not be able or may not be willing to do that. But I'm curious to get your take on all that and then maybe how you've adjusted your business overall for everything that's going on.

Ben (21:14):

Yeah, that's a great question. You know, we are an interior and exterior renovations company, meaning we do any kind of project inside and outside the house. We've really made a strong pivot to be on the outside of your house right now during these times for your safety and for the safety of our crews as well. And so focusing on those exterior projects and expanding on those is what we've really had to do. Now we've got, you know, specific ideas, you know, to be responsive to what's going on with the virus. But but you know, as far as our, our our nuts and bolts of our business, yeah, we are adding on doing some hardscapes doing a lot of stuff that we don't, you know, I didn't get in the business to paint a bunch of houses in the summer of 2020, but that's a lot of what we're going to be doing.

Ben (22:13):

We're going to be paint some houses, baby. I mean this summer is going to be covered in paint and doing a lot of you know, wood rot repair. Hardscapes we do a lot of you know, retaining walls and re pouring driveways. So it's, is understanding that, you know, we might have been given some lemons during this time, but we are really going to do everything that we can to make it sweet and enjoyable and make the best out of it. You know, specifically things that we are rolling out right now. They're, they're modular kind of these kits that you can get and to create hardscapes and we've been able to reverse engineer this whole system and now we can do it for a fraction of the price to build outdoor chimneys, fireplaces, fire pits, you know, outdoor kitchens, raised gardens, you name it.

Ben (23:11):

So we're really taking that or being, we're, we're productizing that and like, Hey, normally this would cost, you know, X now it only, you know, we can do it for this and it looks this good and give examples. But the strongest idea that we've had right now is around remote offices. So the way that we are working, like I've been in my home office for, you know, last few years, right? It's not a whole lot different from him, but what is different is, you know, all these kids running around screaming and yelling when I'm on client calls or to get bids out the door. That's different. Yeah. I think in the, in the general the general population that we are all working from home and I don't know how this is really going to change the way that businesses work, but they've been forced to, to allow remote workers and to have the infrastructure put in place.

Ben (24:07):

So after this, this the season is over or you know, until the next flu season goes you know, we might all be working differently and I think we've all gotten a good taste of what it is like to work from home, working from home with kids and family in here. And, but I think that when we go back to some kind of normalcy, I think that we're all going to work remotely a little bit more often and with a little bit more permission and and guidance and acceptance from parent companies. And so the thing that we're rolling out our remote offices, so we are building small offices, standalone offices and people's backyards. And it can be a flex area. You know, the front can be an office and they can also use it as a paint studio or you know, a yoga studio, a exercise room or something for the kids, you know, office by day, you know, studio by night.

Ben (25:08):

And then the back of the office be a separate storage area for anything from break shovels, lawn mowers, whatever you want to store in your backyard. Right. But, but in rolling this out, in building these things, people are really enjoying. Yes, we have the comfort and the ease of working from home. But Hey, we're not in the house. You know, we're not in a Starbucks or a shared workspace either. Cause that can be cumbersome and expensive, but Hey, we're in the backyard and maybe the kids are trained, like, don't go knock on mommy's or daddy's door, you know, during work hours. But like leave him alone and yet they'll come out and see us at lunchtime. So that's something a really we're really excited about rolling out, you know, different sizes, different shapes, different finishes. But you know, these places are a nice, comfortable, professional work spaces that people can, you know, come to visit you if you're not. You can sit there and work alone and and it's air conditioned or heated and it's you know, we're excited about the the reaction that we're having in the market so far.

Reade (26:15):

So I think that, is it really smart to jump on that? I, you and I were talking before we, we started the, the actual interview, I think that some number between like 20 and 50% of businesses where they have people currently working from home when all of this stuff is over, whenever that is, I think there's going to be a lot of conversations with employees and employers where they say, Hey, did it work just fine for you to work from home just from a productivity and from a connectivity point? And they're going to say, yeah, it kind of was. I don't think I want to commute again. Like, I think I liked that, which, which is going to shift the demand too in a lot of ways on the fly, retrofitting of their homes. You know, I don't think all those people are gonna go out and buy new houses.

Reade (27:07):

Like I, we're very fortunate we had an extra room in the house that I had set up as a home office years ago. Right. We've got a bonus room. But, but soon I'm going to have to give it up to the kids cause they're getting bigger and they're going to need this as a playroom. Right. So there's going to be a big need for this. And I had been seeing this happening, this shift to remote work for a while. This thing obviously forced it on everybody. So I think that's a really smart pivot and I, I'm, I'm also excited to see how you guys are able to roll that out and really implement that over the next year or so. So so yeah, I'm excited for you on that one. I think it's super smart.

Ben (27:51):

Yeah, I'm too, thank you. Yeah.

Reade (27:54):

Well I want to I want to be conscious of your time. I know we've had a good, good opportunity to chat here. Where can people learn more about you and maybe see some of the work that you've done and get in touch with you if they have a project in mind?

Ben (28:09):

Yeah, absolutely. You can find us just by searching for spindle and Oak. Our website is a spindle, an Oak spelled out, spend a little note.com. We have strong social properties. So we have a great house profile with all of our past projects, reviews. I think we're up to 16, 17 five star reviews now. A great Facebook community Instagram and you name it. We were on it next door. So we tried to be very transparent when we try to post pictures. As soon as we have them a finished projects, we're trying to interact with our target buyers in any and every way we can online. But but it's all supplemental, right? Cause word of mouth is so, so key, especially if these, these these projects are worth a hundred K to, you know, two 50 K people doing major innovations to their house.

Ben (29:09):

They tend to do their homework a little bit more than when they ask for recommendations. Hey, what dog food? You know, or you should argue because they're having digestive problems. So people are doing their homework and they should be. And I always tell people to you know, get two or three, four quotes so you can really tell the difference. And you know, in, in a little bit of education too, like you're going to have low ball offers, you're going to have guys to come in and say they can do it all because it's just them. But they might burn down your house and they'll probably be it's months. But you just have to understand the full spectrum of that. So but yeah, if you you land on one of our social properties, you can find our our email address and phone number and give us a shout. And if nothing else, we just love to have conversations. And to dream with you and talk about process and the way that you should think about if you're, if you have a renovation, you know, recent, you know, or something that's, that's coming up, that's something you want to do that year or something that's a few years down the road. We can kind of help you think about how you should budget for it and how you should plan for it and what the process would look like.

Reade (30:23):

So we'll definitely link to all of those things that you mentioned here in the comments. And if you guys are watching on YouTube later on, it'll be in the description of the video and then if you're listening on the podcast, we'll make sure to link it down below. I think it's super smart that you pick those particular platforms. I know that that the word of mouth, and I tell people all the time that the whole purpose of marketing really is to create a, a, an opportunity to spread by word of mouth, right? We ultimately want our customers to be the reason we get new customers, right? But we have to create that infrastructure for them to be able to find that and then to, to verify and validate the work that you've done. And so I think that's great. We'll definitely share that. Well, Ben, I really appreciate your time today. I owe you lunch now that I know that we're, we're both local Atlanta guys, Atlanta ish once, once it's okay to go back out and, you know, like shake hands and, and eat in public.

Ben (31:23):

That's right. That sounds great. I'll take you up on that offer. Thank you for having me. We've enjoyed the conversation and and yeah, I'm, I'm glad you're out there talking about marketing and you know I, I love everything about marketing and it's awesome to kind of build something from scratch. It's kind of the American dream and it's tough and it absolutely stinks sometimes, but it's well worth it. So I, I love to have these conversations and help people maybe get past that hurdle of, Hey, I want to start something, or I'm thinking about this. You know, I think that Steve Harvey has a great video out there about being able to jump and and I don't know a whole lot about Steve Harvey. You might be a fan or not, but it was something that I listened to early on and it feels like a jump starting a business and is uncomfortable, but it's well worth it.

Reade (32:23):

Oh, look, I completely agree. We could, we could share more stories. I could show you some scars I've developed over the years as I'm sure you could too. It's it's truly a, it is challenging in so many ways and it's in so many ways. I think it's the reason that keeps people out of it. I think the challenge is keep people away from it and it's the rewards that keep people addicted to it. And so it's about, it's about that process, right? It's about kind of fallen in love with the process. So I'm glad to see that you've had success relatively early on. I think a lot of people consider it two years in to be very early on. I know it's probably felt like a long two years, but I'm glad to see it then. I am also, thank you everybody. If you've been watching this and if you've enjoyed this or if you haven't enjoyed it, still leave a comment. Like it let me know if you watched this thing live or on the replay. I'm always curious to know when people are watching. If you have any questions for Ben or myself, you know where to find us. Thanks so much guys. We'll see you on the next one.